6 would be still be better than 2. Sure people would be split 6 ways, but at least they'd be split towards someone they can agree with on all issues/relate to. Right now, you get 2 choices. And in recent years, both have been shitty every election. So who do you lean to? The one that you feel is the least shitty. Well, that sucks. I don't want to vote anyone into the most powerful position in the world if I have even the slightest feeling that they are in any way shitty.

ive said it once and ill say it again

with every solution is 10 more problems created

aint that easy. better to work with what u got (especially when it isnt even that bad to begin with) than to whine all the time

All I gotta say is fuck John Kerry....

Fuck that! How much say does the average joe have in who is running for office? Very little. Who are elected officials supposed to be representing? The average joe. :rolleyes:

So why don't we (the average joe and janes of the country) have any say in who runs for office? That's weak. I can gurantee you that there are people out there who would be waaay better than either one of these two clowns.

:mad:

according to who.... you?

just like i said earlier. with every solutoin are 10 problems. if things were changed to mkae YOU happy then that would make all the other people who are happy now, unhappy. its a never ending cycle. so like i said, work with what ya have. bitch and complain if you want, but fact is SOMEONE is going to be bitching and complaining no matter WHAT the situation.....

Of course they are. We know that you can't please everyone.

But if you're rational, there are ways of compromising so that people are mostly happy.


When's the last time you or your parents or anyone you know had any actual input into who our two choices for President are?

Probably never.

So who are the ones making the choices of who runs? The ones that are already in power. Would they ever willingly let a new contender come in and try to get some of that power? No way. They'd do everything in their power to stop that from happening.

So how can that change?

You are saying you don't think it can because it would cause different problems. By saying that you are indirectly saying you have resigned yourself to being a complacent person. You are happy with what you are provided and don't want anything better. You go with the flow. You're one of the herd. Congratualtions, you are doing exactly what the parties that have the power want you to do.

That's not for me though.

P.S. Intellectual discussion regarding politics is not whining. It's conversation and sometimes debate.

do we have time to do everything? city electoins are coming up, for an average joe to get in on the action. im gonna be a cop, as much as id like to get more of a hold on politics, i cant. and if i really wanted to, thats what id do, is run.

are any of you running to be part of the board? not governor, not even senator, but even of any of the several committees eg the ones that check for squandering perhaps?

sure, my parents dont have a say in who to vote for other than to just chose between a or b, but do they necessarily care? yes it is whining. because YOU are whining yet you do nothing. what good is it to whine on an internet forum? are yuo helping anything? its very easy to whine about how we dont hav any candidates, its another to get out there and do something

me. i dont care. whether or not we went to war, either 1 group or a tnoehr group would be pissed. thats politics. which is why i choose not to get involved. which is why i dont COMPLAIN...

and what is it with this board and these type of assumptions? always telling me just beacuse i wear plain clothes im a sheep all of a sudden?

well how about if i say all you that wear hot topic are just hot topic sheep? they all come from the same sweatshop ya know

i go with the flow. sure. why? becuase i have other things that im busy worrying about. my focus isnt on complaining about something that im not gonna step up and make a difference about.

at some point, werent bush, clinton, kerry, gephardt... all part of the 'herd' at some point? werent they all nobodies? the difference being between them and the rest of their classmates is for hwtaever reason they decided to do MOre than that.

is there anything wrong with that? no. is there anything wrong with the others that followed the 'herd'? no. we dont all have TIME to be different. if we all went against the herd, then wouldnt we be creating our own herd that were follwing?

honestly. relating to Jay's thread.. if theres ANYTHING i hate bout HDC, its all this 'oh your a sheep' 'oh your not an individual' 'your just like everyone else' crap........ do i sit here and follow some handbook to 'fit in' and be 'normal'? no. i do what i want, i look the way i do becuase its easy and i dont givadamn about how i look. same goes with politics. if i was passionate about it then yes id complain, meaning id do like with what Kery did and speak out about the war. how many people out there can say they spoken in front of the US supreme court?

im feeling stingyesque tonight.

First of all, your entire post is a complaint so come on down off your high horse. This is a thread about politics, I was under the impression I could post my political opinions here. Maybe that's not the case...

Secondly, how would you know whether or not I'm involved in politics? You wouldn't. I'm only 24 so, no, I haven't held any political office as of yet. Does that mean that I don't intend to or that I'm not inolved in politics? No. I actually do plan on running for city office in the next decade (Once I own a house and have a city to call my own and represent.) I have always taken an active role in taking care of things I want to get done. I was class president in 8th grade, student council 9th, 10th, and 11th grade and class vice president in 12 grade. While I was in college, I was actively volunteering my time to help other students register to vote.

I can gurantee you I plan to do a hell of a lot more for what I believe in that just sit there and pick from 'a' or 'b'.

Who says cops can't hold public office? Be the commissioner or the chief of police. Stand up for yourself. Raise your voice. Don't be content to be a number in the system.

How many people can say their anti-war Supreme Court testimony was played to American POWs while still in captivity?

How many people can say they are recognized as a hero to the communists?



I'm not calling you a sheep, but if you admittedly see a problem with the system, yet remain complacent in doing nothing about it, that would make you one.

And yes, people who buy their clothes at Hot Topic are sheep too.

of course you can post ur opinion, which is what i put to. i never disputed that. when did i ever tell you to shut up? and im complaining. of course im complaining. here are you telling me im wrong for thinking that this are going ok. jjust like i said, while one group is happy, theres gonna be one thats pissed. a never ending cycle

and of course cops can hold councel. but does that i mean i have to? no. i want to be a cop. thats it. most cops dont even want to promote further past detective because the higher up you go means more desk work. thats exactly what politics is, shaking hands and deskwork. me, i want to go out and kick ass. whats wrong with that?

maybe you are involved with politics. good. so whats wrong with me NOT being involved? so now im one of the sheep? and lets say you DO become involved. so now im gonna be one of your sheep? but thats ok right?

i too take things into my own hands, and wont ever stand down to a fight. doesnt mean i want to run for president. what do you think cops do?

look, i stated my opinoin, you stated yours. just like in my previous reply, if thers ANYTHING that pisses me off about tihs site, its all this 'normal' 'sheep' 'going with the flow 'BS. i know there are some people out there that really DO want to stick with whats on MTV, on all the magazines, whats 'in.' but why is it that here everyone jumps on that all of a sudden? i coudl say the same thing about you, i could say id ont nkow 'always complaining, wanting to start a fight, wanting to be different' etc. but i dont.

we are ALLL sheep, just different types.... and no 1 type is necessarily better or worse than another..

of COURSE i see a problem. but like i said earlier, one solved is another created. there is ALWAYS going to be a problem.

just like with the rest of your post (that i deleted and am too lazy to get back)... group a and group b. theres gona be those that view kerry as a hero, and those (like urself) who think hes a nutjob. so what? are you gonna go kill yourself if hes elected? am i going to kill myself if george is? is the country going to HOnestly go to the shitter with either of these 2? people said it was going to go to shit with cilnton, siad it was going to wit bush. JUST LIKE there were those that said it would be GREAT with clinton, and GREAT with bush..

THAT is what im complacent abuot. is i realize that theres alwyas going to be the 2 sides. so what? im gonna cry and complain every time i dont get my way? ill let whoever the idiots who are running here in SD worry about that. politicians can stick with politics, ill do my cop thing... etc etc.

I never said you told me to 'shut up'. I never said you were wrong either.

Quote:

and of course cops can hold councel. but does that i mean i have to? no. i want to be a cop. thats it. most cops dont even want to promote further past detective because the higher up you go means more desk work. thats exactly what politics is, shaking hands and deskwork. me, i want to go out and kick ass. whats wrong with that?

No, you don't have to. I think a police officer is a very noble profession. Along with firemen, I feel like they should be payed much more than they are. (I think the salaries of professional athletes and legitimate heros {firemen, paramedics, cops, doctors} should be switched around.)

Quote:

maybe you are involved with politics. good. so whats wrong with me NOT being involved? so now im one of the sheep? and lets say you DO become involved. so now im gonna be one of your sheep? but thats ok right?

Nothing is wrong with it, but it's just not for me. I don't want sheep, I want individuals with their own opinions which I would listen to and value.

Quote:

i too take things into my own hands, and wont ever stand down to a fight. doesnt mean i want to run for president. what do you think cops do?

Huh? Cops protect and serve their community.

Quote:

look, i stated my opinoin, you stated yours. just like in my previous reply, if thers ANYTHING that pisses me off about tihs site, its all this 'normal' 'sheep' 'going with the flow 'BS. i know there are some people out there that really DO want to stick with whats on MTV, on all the magazines, whats 'in.' but why is it that here everyone jumps on that all of a sudden? i coudl say the same thing about you, i could say id ont nkow 'always complaining, wanting to start a fight, wanting to be different' etc. but i dont.

I'm glad that you can make up your own mind on things, that's great to hear. What other thread were you called a 'sheep' in and by whom? You could say whatever you want about me. I don't even know you so it won't bother me, just like what I say shouldn't bother you. But just for shits and giggles, let's go down the list one by one... Whining... Since you seem to call debating 'whining', then yeah, I guess you could use that one. Fighting... Nope. that one's no good. I haven't started one fight on here ever. I've discussed, I've debated, I've conversed, but it's always in a collected and rational fashion. If you can point out one fight I've started in my 1900+ posts, I would love to see it. Wanting to be different... It's not that I want to be different, it's just that I am. I would actually love to be able to have MTV tell what music to listen to and have a Gap or Old Navy commercial tell me what kind of clothes I should wear. It sure would make life a lot simpler if all of my decisions were made by conglomerate corporations.

Quote:

we are ALLL sheep, just different types.... and no 1 type is necessarily better or worse than another..

I never said I was better than anyone. I think we're all equal all the way across the board, that's why I would like to see the common man's voice being heard a little more.

YOU DID IT AGAIN!! AHHHHHHHh!!!!!

were all sheep, and at the same time were all individuals! DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN!! (family guy is on so i had to put that)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I disagree. We are only sheep if we allow ourselves to become sheep.

And like I said, I don't want sheep, I want individuals.

depends on how u look at it. just like how things would be boring if we were all the same, thing would be boring if we were ALL different.

more importantly... whos to decide our individuality? others perception on us, or our own perception of ourselves?

You're right. It all depends on how you are looking at it.




Hey! Look at that! We agreed on something!

I'm gonna end it on that good note because I gotta get going to bed.

Good discussion fluff.


(P.S. You know you'd be one of my sheep now that you heard what I'd do for cops wages. ;) Just kidding. )

Goodnite

Toodles. Ciao. Auf WIederlesen. BaAaaaAAA

fuck wages. my parents arent even college graduates (not even AAs) yet we still pull in over 100k a year without any help.

but maybe id be ur sheep if u were really hot and doable.

Fuck wages? Okay, you have definately seperated yourself form the American herd with that statement right there. But, I'd still give you a raise because rescue personnel doesn't get paid nearly enough for what they do.

I'm super hot. (If you like skinny, pale, white guys that spend too much time on their computer when they should be sleeping.) But I'm not so doable. You see, I'm engaged and once the knot is tied, I'm off the market. I value not only the word 'marriage', but the meaning of it, too. :D

honestly, money isnt that much to me. cops cap at about $75000, which is very good i think. not looking to have a mansion (just my lexus, which is what im getting as a BA present). anyway, this is gonna sound crazy, but so long as i can live and support my family, i dont need all this xtra crap. my hope is that majority of people do their job becuase they sincreely want to, not just for the pay out (hahaha... yeh right)

so NOW whos the sheep................... :p jk. im planning on being good from now on..

i did have my skinny pale white boy phase but im half out of that. not really into skinny anymore. so i guess that makes you lukewarm. :D jk.

now go to bed slim shady.

OMG I just noticed your avatar! lol

Did you just add that tonight or was that from one of your previous sheep labelings?

I had an asian girl phase in college that has since passed. Now I'm on to the busty blondes. :D

seen as this is a place for horror and being scared and also you guys are voting for anyone now i would vote for our very own maggie thatcher to be you're next president.
you think you've got it bad now?, just wait till maggie gets in the oval office........its the stuff nightmares are made of aint it?

Fluffho said this:


Then Fluffo said this:

Then she said something about being "stingyesque" which is really cool.

I want to respond here, but I have to get to work (the students await ... grrrrr). Maybe I can hop in during 5th period.

Something was telling me that we'd be hearing form you on this one. :) :) School started already? I thought it was usually not until after Labor Day. Oh well, glad I don't really have to know/care about that any more.

hey.. u have to check the context

the first one was referring to me not complaining about the government situation

the 2nd was referring to all this 'sheep' talk that ive seen wayy too much of since i first joined

so get it straight!

Yeah, I've noticed that Christians like to call people "sheep" ... odd, seeing as their god calls himself their shepherd .... very odd.

Yeah, school started about 3 weeks ago for me. I'm on the 4th week now. At least I'm getting it knocked out. This is why I haven't been on so much lately. And I can't stay online now because I have to get to open house and meet the parents.

I don't mean to get in the middle of your debate with bwind22, however, here goes. If voter turnout, (participation) were not so pathetic, seemingly more then a 2 party system would be possible, but not necessarily needed. As it is now, individuals, (there's that word) are making a stance, or statement by voting outside of the Democrats or GOP, and typically pull votes away from the Democratic candidate. At one time the 2 major parties had voters or candidates who ranged from far left or right, to moderates, and fence riders, or crossovers. whereby giving our primary system, (in theory) the opportunity for voters to choose the candidate who best shares their political or personal views on the issues, which greatly reduces, (not eliminate) the need for an independent candidate(s). This by no means or implies that independent candidates or voters are restrictively labeled Liberals and/or Conservatives. The 2 major parties have less and less voters who are afforded this opportunity, thereby making a 2 party system so unattractive to a lot of them.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm voting for Bush. For me Kerry goes back and forth on so many of the issues, and many, say if not all. At least Bush tends to stay with his original plan, like it or not. A firm and consistent hand is needed to effectively carry out our nations issues. No two people are going to do all things the same way, or share the same opinion on how best to accomplish these things. We know what to expect from Bush, All we know about Kerry, is that he originally voted for many of Bush's ideas, and now votes against them, IMHO, Kerry needs to make up his mind.

Don't worry, right now he's back to "for it" again...Did you hear Guilliani's speech last night?...He figures that Kerry has just about enough time to change back and forth at least 5 or 6 more times before the election...Rudy's keeping score...

Kerry's stance on the war:

Beginning-For
Middle (when it was looking bad)-Against
Now (For the moment, and at least in the pro-war dominated districts)-For

We'll see what his position is the day before the election...I suppose that will depend on whatever the majority of the people that he is hanging around with, at that time, prefers him to be :rolleyes:

What is it about the RNC? All this teary-eyed patriotic schmaltz. The bit with the widows was beyond sappy.

I thought McCain was fairly tepid in his endorsement of his new-found friend George. His best line, his most rousing moment, was the remark about Moore, which indeed was well delivered. But all he could say about Bush was standard boilerplate; he could only bring himself to say that he "commended" Bush's candidacy to the American people, this after mentioning several times how he has many friends who are Democrats, etc.

I confess I gave Guiliani a miss. I tried to listen, but it went on and on.

I missed the Democratic convention because I was out of the country, but if it was as bad as this one, then I'd say the networks are right in reducing their coverage. Political conventions used to have some drama. These things are manipulative marketing glitz.

I saw both Guilliani's and McCain's speechs last night. I wish the latter hadn't given Michael Moore so much free publicity, I also loved Ron Silverman's. Did you see Kerry's daughters on the MTV awards the other night? Seemed like a lot of booing going on from a supposed democratic target group. Alice Cooper also came out about "rockers" campaining for Kerry.

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/augu...e_cooper.shtml

1) John Kerry represents corporations and the rich, not the working majority.
Like Bill Clinton, Kerry may claim to feel your pain, but he's not the typical American. A multimillionaire and former member of Skull and Bones - the elite Yale secret society whose membership included George Bush I and II - Kerry is the richest U.S. Senator, quite a mean feat considering the Senate is essentially a millionaires' club. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Kerry has received more money from corporations and their lobbyists than any other Senator. Guess whose interests he'll stand up for once he's elected?

2) John Kerry fully supports Bush's brutal war in Iraq.
Kerry voted to authorize the war in Iraq, which so far has claimed the lives of 865 U.S. soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis. If elected, Kerry has pledged to send more troops to their deaths to protect U.S. oil interests. He backed the war in Afghanistan and endorsed Israel's assassinations of Palestinian militants and their families.

3) John Kerry supports other American imperial projects, too.
Rand Beers, a top Kerry advisor and former member of the Bush Sr., Jr., and Clinton National Security Councils, helped craft Plan Colombia, the brutal taxpayer-funded war on Andean peasants to prop up a regime friendly to U.S. oil interests. Kerry voted for and continues to support this criminal policy. He goes out of his way to criticize Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's democratically elected populist president, openly siding with the wealthy opposition movement that staged a failed coup d'état with U.S. help in 2002.

4) John Kerry will further curtail our civil liberties.
Kerry gave his support and vote for Bush's Patriot Act. But this was not just the product of post-9/11 Democratic spinelessness. Kerry also supported Clinton's Patriot Act prequels, the 1994 Crime Bill and the 1996 Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act.

5) John Kerry is a Drug War enthusiast.
With votes and rhetoric, the Senator has helped pack the prisons with over 2 million people, providing America the dubious honor of having the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world. With promises to realize the 1994 Crime Bill's intent to add 100,000 cops on the streets and even more stringent punishments for victimless crimes, Kerry has won the endorsement of most police associations in the country.

6) John Kerry's economic plan will create poverty, not jobs.
Kerry continues to support "free-trade" treaties such as the WTO and NAFTA, which has destroyed hundreds of thousands of U.S. jobs, depressed wages in Mexico, and cost 3 million Mexican farmers their livelihoods. He voted for and continues to tout Clinton's demolition of welfare, throwing hundreds of thousands into the streets, disproportionately young mothers and their children.

He has pledged to cut (yes, cut) the corporate tax rate. This is at a time of the greatest polarization of wealth since the 1920s, when after-tax corporate profits as a share of GDP have reached a level not seen since 1929, while poverty is growing and access to healthcare falling! At the same time, Kerry wants to maintain massive military expenditures on Iraq and Afghanistan.

7) John Kerry's health care plan: don't get sick.
Forty-four million people currently lack health insurance, and monthly premiums are reaching $500 in some states. In contrast with the majority of Americans, who consistently say they want a publicly funded universal healthcare system as a solution to the healthcare crisis, Kerry's non-solution is to help insurers pay the cost of employees' emergencies and hospital stays, and to provide tax credits to businesses. Kerry would use federal money to only help out the companies, not the workers who actually need it.

8) John Kerry, like George Bush, wants to leave every child behind.
The rising cost of college tuition now leaves many young people with staggering debt burdens, while cash-starved school districts are cutting hours from the school week and eliminating programs like preschool, music, and physical education. In the primary season, Kerry promised funding for universal preschool and to cover college costs for national service volunteers. But he has already broken his promise by scaling back these programs to appease Corporate America.

He has also scaled back plans for providing money to the states, leaving states and cities with fewer dollars to spend on education. Perhaps the fact that Kerry voted for Bush's notorious "No Child Left Behind" legislation is the best indication of how Kerry will actually govern.

9) John Kerry opposes same-sex marriage rights.
At the national level and in his home state of Massachusetts, Kerry has made clear he does not support giving LGBT people equal marriage rights, instead suggesting second class "civil unions."

10) John Kerry will only get worse.
After Kerry beat out Howard Dean in the primaries, he moved rightward, reneging on many populist primary promises. New York Times columnist David Brooks described Kerry's strategy in an article aptly titled "Right Face, March!": "John Kerry is ... the policy twin of Joe Lieberman: a pro-trade, fiscally conservative centrist Democrat who is willing to pour more troops into Iraq to win the war. [He is playing] the quadrennial game that smart nominees play: Shaft the Left ... Kerry now vows to cap federal spending and reduce the size of government ... Kerry now insists he is not 'a redistributionist Democrat.' He flees from the word 'liberal'." (5/4/04) Kerry feels he can ignore issues important to the current Democratic base - women, unions, people of color - since they certainly won't turn to Bush. As long as Kerry can take the left for granted, he will have no incentive to implement any progressive policies. This was the case with Clinton, who came to power with the backing of the labor movement, then promptly passed NAFTA and forgot all about his promises for universal healthcare.

Millions of Americans are legitimately desperate to oust the un-elected George W. Bush from the White House. But simply defeating Bush does not mean defeating Bush's policies - policies which have been either supported or allowed by the Democratic Party establishment, and will continue under a Kerry administration.

While differences between Bush and Kerry do exist on some issues, such as abortion rights or federal agency appointments, the Democrats have proven again and again that they are unwilling and unable to stand up and defend our rights on any front. When push comes to shove, figures like Kerry will always cave in to right-wing corporate interests, which have financed his entire political career.

The only way to really change things is to build a mass movement of regular people to fight for our interests and against both corporate parties of the status quo.

The two corporate parties are jointly barreling down a path of war, exploitation, and environmental destruction that threatens our living standards (and very existence as a species). Now more than ever, we need a new political party that is not beholden to the rich, and this will never happen as long as people vote for the lesser evil instead of the candidate they truly agree with.

Well..I won't watch Mtv...*cough*Mainsream Commercialism*cough*...But, I loved the link...Thanks ;)


Alice Cooper Rocks:cool:

Oh..and Thank YOU, Phnomne for that very informative (and hopefully eye-opening, as well as MIND-opening) post;) :)

You guys are acting like one of these guys is a lieing asshole.....they are BOTH lieing assholes guys.....BOTH...

Of that Im well aware Arioch, but to be honest if forced to choose I will take Bush. Im pretty confident that he a full fledged member of the Mettem Phuktem Leftem fraternity. I really dont want to see what will happen if our country was put into the hands of Lurch or the condiment Queen.

This was exactly the point I was trying to get across in my earlier discussion with Fluff. She labeled it as whining.

Very well worded, Je Suis.

I would back that statement 100%....

i think it is exactly this situation that is responsible for my love of apocalyptic movies.

Who needs to worry about who is a better candidate when they have both been eaten by zombies?

lol when the proverbial shit hits the fan, we just want to make sure that we arent down range of the splatter.

In all reality the whole "civil war" idea I do find a bit intriguing, but at the same time realize that civil uprisings make us no better than the countries we are out there protecting and attacking for that matter.